Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:11 pm

Wow, nice work, that looks the business! 8)

It seems you need a lot of additional skills to be able to fit and run a type 4 engine, I guess that’s why it’s not so frequently seen.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:44 am

Thank you - it took a while but it turned out OK in the end.

I think the main issues in the Type1/Type4 discussion revolve around ease of fitting and cost. Type4 engines cost quite a lot more to rebuild than the Type1 and good quality new parts are hard to find. The replacement cooling system is also expensive, whichever design you choose. For some of the fitment problems, there are no off-the-shelf solutions, thus there is always additional work required. The user base of the Type4 engine is much smaller, so the support situation in all respects is not as good or as extensive as for the Type1.

The Split Bus is not the Type4 engine's natural home, hence it demands more time and money to get it to fit properly. Having said that, once it's in, it's a great combination and well worth the effort. It's just a pity that it won't fit with it's normal cooling system - that would save a lot of work and expense!

Dave.


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by davesparkes » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:35 pm

Hi,

I run a mildly modded 2056cc Type 4 in my ‘66 and it’s great, but yes the installation wasn’t straightforward or cheap!

I used a Raby fanshroud (fabulous quality), VintageSpeed exhaust and custom Turbo Thomas short J-tubes.

The installation looks pretty factory, the motor is smooth and torquey - we’ve been all over Europe with it, and as far as Skye and Devon whilst towing a boat!

With twin 40s, mild cam and 914-spec Stateside heads it’s a thirsty beast, but I can live with that! Stateside are great for parts and advice, but stuff like bearings etc are getting hard to find, decent quality ones anyway.

As per the other posts, I would advise to keep the engine basically stock, with the mods I made I think I pushed the power band a bit too high for best use in a bus. I guess the factory knew what it was doing...

Cheers
Dave


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:57 pm

So what sort of mpg do you get out of it then? I guess fuel injection would add even more to the cost!

So when you say stock, are you talking 2.0 or smaller?
davesparkes wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:35 pm
Hi,

I run a mildly modded 2056cc Type 4 in my ‘66 and it’s great, but yes the installation wasn’t straightforward or cheap!

I used a Raby fanshroud (fabulous quality), VintageSpeed exhaust and custom Turbo Thomas short J-tubes.

The installation looks pretty factory, the motor is smooth and torquey - we’ve been all over Europe with it, and as far as Skye and Devon whilst towing a boat!

With twin 40s, mild cam and 914-spec Stateside heads it’s a thirsty beast, but I can live with that! Stateside are great for parts and advice, but stuff like bearings etc are getting hard to find, decent quality ones anyway.

As per the other posts, I would advise to keep the engine basically stock, with the mods I made I think I pushed the power band a bit too high for best use in a bus. I guess the factory knew what it was doing...

Cheers
Dave
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by davesparkes » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:25 am

I think any 1700-2000cc with stock internals and a set of mild twin carbs would be perfect in a split. A stock rebuild wouldn’t cost the earth, either.

In terms of fuel consumption, I’ve never actually measured it properly, but cruising at 55-60mph fully laden with a family of 5, roof rack piled high with camping gear and towing a sailing dinghy, we have a range of around 2 hours before each fuel stop (stock fuel tank).

BTW the bus is running bug IRS with a 1303 ‘box, 15” wheels with 195/65 tyres.

Cheers
Dave

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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:01 am

I can't tell you what mpg I get with the Split (as I've never measured it) but the Bay I fitted with the stock 1800 Type4 motor years ago returned around 30mpg, which was better than the stock 1600TP that had been in it. On that basis, with it being a lighter vehicle, a stock Type4 Split should return at least that. As suggested above, don't go mad with performance upgrades - they're not needed and will probably result in higher running costs. Keep it stock if possible.

Dave (D)


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 2:38 pm

so what about a 2 litre 914 engine with DTM upright cooling, would that fit/work OK? I read somewhere about them having a 3 stud case? Is that a good or bad thing?
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:12 am

A 914 2l engine with DTM cooling would be perfect. Outwardly the 914 engine is the same lump as any other Type4 unit, only the internals are different, eg. cam, valves, etc. The issues involved in fitting one into a Split are the same for all variants of this engine. The DTM arrangement gives a more stock-looking appearance to the engine bay, compared with the Porsche fan cooling setup.

Not sure what you mean by a '3 stud case'?

Dave.


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 10:06 am

I’m glad it’s not just me then!

What sort of heat exchangers work with a 914 engine, or do you need to modify bus ones to fit in some way?
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:36 pm

You can use the shallow heat exchangers as fitted to the 411/412 cars or the deeper Bus ones, but in either case they have to be shortened at the rear end to allow the muffler to fit inside the rear valance of the bus. (I'm not sure what is fitted to a Porsche 914 - it might be worth further investigation). The Bus type deliver more heat than the shallow ones as they have internal fins - the shallow ones have no fins. It wouldn't be difficult to modify either type if you are competent with an angle grinder and a welder!

CSP used to offer shortened versions of the shallow type (see pic), but they were very expensive and presumably would provide even less heat than unmodified ones. As a result I decided not to fit heat exchangers at all.

The other main issue with fitting heat exchangers is the provision of an air flow from the cooling shroud. The DTM shroud has no air outlets - not sure about a Porsche fan shroud - but I imagine it would be possible to incorporate some. You would need to determine the best position on the shroud to install them, so as not to affect the air flow to the cylinders. Again, I decided not to bother and fitted stainless headers which I had made to measure.
Vintage Speed used to sell special short stainless headers for this purpose.

I take it you are contemplating undertaking a Type4 conversion? It takes time and effort but it's worth it in the end!

Dave.
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:48 pm

Yeah, it’s definitely on my mind! Trouble is I have a decent, reliable and proven 1600 in at the moment with good strong heating, so I’m wondering if it’s a case of if it ain’t broke…
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Wed Jul 24, 2019 11:29 pm

Well, unless you are craving more speed, staying as you are would certainly be the cheapest option. I suspect the next cheapest (and easiest) option would be to modify your 1600 to say 1835, then you would get better performance without the additional effort of having to make it fit your bus.

My bus had no engine when I got it, so it was a blank canvas. It was my earlier experience with fitting a Type4 engine into a late Bay that influenced my decision.

Good luck, whatever you do.
Dave.


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:47 am

It’s the low down torque that appeals :)
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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by DoubleD » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:47 am

Yes, the Type4 has plenty of that. The Bay I fitted with the AN series 1800 engine went from a snail to a flying machine. What hills?

Although I'm sure you are well aware, a Split with a more powerful and torquey motor needs a bit of tweaking in the braking, suspension and steering departments to keep it stable and safe. The late Bay didn't need anything doing as the handling was much better anyway.

My Split was a blank canvas in all respects, being a basket case to start with. As a result I made quite a few mods to make the handling match the uprated power. You might want to factor this into your thinking (and costing) if you decide to take the plunge!

Cheers, Dave.


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Re: Type1 v Type4 engines – differences/benefits between them?

Post by passion4 » Fri Jul 26, 2019 8:17 am

Although my bus is stock-ish, steering and brakes have both been upgraded anyway. Even with the 1600cc it made sense! :)

Steering https://www.vdubxs.com/custom-power-ste ... ge-vw-bus/

brakes https://www.vdubxs.com/vented-porsche-9 ... t-to-like/
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